Welcome to our podcast, four ordinary Americans tackling potentially divisive issues without letting the open ended conversation divide us from each other. In terms of political tribes, my co-host Byron leans very Blue and I lean very Red, and together we are activists for better civil discourse. We are walking the Braver Angels talk and sharing it with you.
For this week’s podcast we focused our conversation on patriotism and nationalism. Here’s what we have to offer.
1. Podcast recording. Byron edits out the ums and ahs and such, but otherwise it’s four real people engaging in real conversation.
2. Summary provided by AI for readers who want to skim fast before deciding to commit to listening. The recording and the transcript are there for a deeper dive.
3. Transcript from the recording lightly edited for readability and an occasional odd bit added in italics to make it make sense. For tone and laughter, you’ll have to listen.
Part 1 – Full Podcast Recording uploaded using the Substack audio post options instead of embedding the audio. Will it work? We’ll find out!
Part 2 - Meeting Summary with AI Companion
Casual Conversation and Participant Introductions
The group gathers for another conversation, with Byron Odion introducing the participants: Sue Lani Madsen, Gregory Mangel, Raven Odion, and Kaeley Triller Harms, who is joining in place of Roger Haynes. Byron mentions he has prepared a script for the discussion, and the group engages in casual conversation while waiting for everyone to arrive. Sue Lani shares the story behind her name, and the participants exchange greetings as Gregory joins last.
Fishbowl Discussion Podcast Logistics
Sue Lani and Byron discuss the logistics for an upcoming fishbowl discussion as part of a podcast. They agree on ground rules, including turning off video and muting when not speaking. Byron will sit out, leaving four participants: Raven, Gregory, Sue Lani, and Kaeley. The fishbowl portion will last about 10 minutes, with Byron editing for clarity. Sue Lani suggests a conversational approach between two people rather than strict time-sharing. They plan to start with a question about personal experiences informing definitions of patriotism.
Exploring Patriotism and Nationalism Differences
In the meeting, Sue Lani, Raven, Gregory, and Kaeley discussed the topic of patriotism and nationalism, exploring their differences and similarities. They decided to use a braver angel style fishbowl discussion, with two groups, the blues (Gregory and Raven) and the reds (Sue Lani and Kaeley), taking turns to share their views on patriotism. The groups would switch roles, with the silent observers learning from the discussion. The conversation ended with a coin toss to determine the order of the discussion, with the Blues going first.
Patriotism vs. Nationalism: Blue Fishbowl
Raven and Gregory discussed their experiences and perspectives on patriotism and nationalism. Raven shared how her understanding of history has deepened her appreciation for the ideals of the United States, while Gregory emphasized the importance of expanding the definition of what it means to be an American. They also explored the differences between patriotism and nationalism, with Raven highlighting that the United States is not a nation based on shared history, religion, culture, language, and ethnicity. Gregory defined nationalism as uncritical devotion to a country, often rooted in ethnicity or race, and emphasized the need for critical thinking and inclusivity in defining a nation. Gregory and Raven discussed the concept of patriotism, with Raven emphasizing that it involves being able to criticize the government. They also touched on the idea of nationalism.
Patriotism vs. Nationalism: Red Fishbowl
The discussion then shifted to Sue and Kaeley, who shared their personal experiences with patriotism. Kaeley described growing up with a sense of America being the greatest country and feeling a bit uneasy about the pledge of allegiance. Sue Lani shared her fondness for rituals and how the pledge of allegiance made her feel part of a shared family. Both agreed that patriotism can be a positive force.
Sue Lani discussed her understanding of patriotism and nationalism, emphasizing the importance of active participation in shaping the country. She shared her experience during the Vietnam War, choosing to support the side with the flag on their armband, symbolizing her loyalty to the country. Sue Lani also expressed her belief in the potential for the country to be a functional family, even in the face of disagreements. Kaeley shared her struggles with the issue of the national anthem and the Black Lives Matter movement, highlighting the need for continued efforts to address racism. The discussion ended with Sue Lani's observation that the issue of the national anthem felt like a matter of bad strategy rather than a significant problem.
Kaeley and Sue Lani discussed their differing perspectives on nationalism and patriotism. Kaeley expressed her disdain for Christian nationalism and its association with excess, while Sue Lani shared her experience with Baltic countries' nationalism based on ethnicity and language.
Observations and Reflections After the Fishbowls
[We confused AI by taking a side trip before settling in to sharing reflections on the topic at hand]
The conversation then shifted to language policies, with Raven and Sue Lani sharing their reasons for learning Spanish and German, respectively. The conversation ended with an open discussion, where participants were encouraged to share their learnings and surprises from the conversation.
Patriotism and Political Group Dynamics
The team discussed the topic of patriotism and its perception in different political groups. They acknowledged the potential for divisiveness but emphasized finding common ground. The conversation highlighted the importance of listening and understanding different perspectives. The team also discussed the influence of public figures and media on shaping opinions and the need for both political groups to move away from extreme positions to foster better conversations.
Patriotism and Personal Experiences
In the meeting, the participants discussed their personal experiences with the flag and patriotism. Raven found the listening part easy, while Sue Lani found the listening part challenging. Byron shared his perspective on the flag, expressing a sense of sadness for not being more connected with the price people have paid for the privilege of waving the flag. The group also discussed the importance of dialogue and reconnecting through social media and their circles of friends for the mission of healthy communities and families. They agreed to continue these discussions in future meetings.
Part 3 – Transcript
Byron Odion: Well, Hello, everyone! We're back and ready for another conversation. My name is Byron, Odion and I have Sue Lani Madsen, Gregory Mengel, my wife, Raven Odion, and since Roger Haynes can't be with us this time, we invited Kaeley Triller Harms to join us as a Red say, Hello, gang!
[And a chorus of hellos rang out!]
Byron: For this podcast we've decided to pick the topic of patriotism. We will be using a Braver Angel style “fishbowl” discussion. Today we have 2 Blues, Gregory and Raven and 2 Reds, Sue Lani and Kaeley. I will be sitting this one out.
One group will stay on mic and share their views for 10 min on the topic of patriotism. The other group will be off-mic listening. Then we switch, and the other group will be on mic, while the while the group that shared first listens. The goal is to see how the other side sees the issue and discover common ground.
The real work in this exercise is done by the silent observers whose task it is to listen and learn [including listeners to the podcast!]. We will then talk about what each group learned from listening. We have decided to do a coin toss, to determine who goes first. Sue Lani, call it heads or tails.
Sue Lani: Tails.
Byron: It's heads.
Sue Lani: Okay. Blues go first! The rest of us will all turn our videos off, so that you two have the zoom room to yourself.
Gregory Mengel: Hi! Raven!
Raven Odion: Hey, Gregory!
Gregory: Yeah, do you want to begin by answering the question, what experiences inform your definition of racism, of patriotism?
Raven: Oh, that's a good question. I think that watching the news during the Vietnam war and seeing the death toll scroll every night on the screen, and then hmm . . . Being affected by the sixties with the anti-war movement and sort, and also sort of the back to the land movement where people were picking holes in the state rather than agreeing with everything that was happening.
Yeah, I'll just say that. How about you, Gregory?
Gregory: Yeah, so, that's interesting. I've never really thought about this particular question before. I feel like what I consider patriotism is just feeling a sense of belonging in America, right? I'm an American. And so I think of the country as like a larger version of my family. I didn't really choose it. But I'm born into kind of a sense of loyalty to it, and a sense of connection to it. That is in some way deep, right?
But if I think about the question . . . what do I love about America? If I want to make it concrete, how did I grow to love particular things about America?
I would have to say it comes from my experience as a queer kid growing up in Ohio, a million miles away from where there was a notion of a gay rights or gay liberation movement. Growing up really lost. So that's the one end of the spectrum. It wasn't that experience, but it was the changes that happened to the country over the next 40 years to where my marriage rights are now recognized by the country.
What is it about the country that made that kind of change possible over time really feels like something that makes me love America more than I would just from being born here.
Raven: Hmm, so for you, patriotism is loving your country appreciating your country, is that correct?
Gregory: Yeah, I mean a sense of familial loyalty.
Raven Odion: Yeah, I think for me I would say that I would define it that way as well, and because I came from such a dysfunctional family I didn't transfer that sense of familial bond to my country. And so I think I was more easily primed to see the problems when I was younger. It's so interesting because, as I've gotten older also, I was a horrible student in school for numerous reasons, but history made no sense to me. I could not wrap my head around all the numbers and dates and battles, couldn't grasp it.
And now that I'm an older woman, I love history, and I read a lot of history, and it's given me more of an appreciation and more of a love for my country through understanding what it took to even create America, the United States. It was truly a phenomenal thing at the time, and my appreciation for the ideals have grown.
Without that we wouldn't have had the Voting Rights Act, which unfortunately has been dismantled. But we wouldn't have had women's rights. We wouldn't have had women being able to vote, people of color being able to vote, the 13th Amendment, birthright citizenship for people, the 14th Amendment. My understanding of history has allowed me to have a greater appreciation for the ideals of United States.
Gregory: Yeah, that's beautiful. I resonate really strongly with that. I was thinking earlier, as I was just generally thinking about patriotism, what do we mean by America? I feel like, [defining] what do you mean by America or what do you mean by your country is an important part of shaping what you mean by patriotism, and I think of America as a long-term project with an egalitarian impulse, trying to expand what it means to be American, right? Like including more and different people, that maybe at the beginning or definitely at the beginning would definitely they’re not qualified in some way because of their race, because of their religion, because of their nationality, and so expanding into that spaciousness of what it means to be an American, and all the incredible sacrifice and blood that's been shed for that ideal. . .
Raven: Right.
Gregory: . . . is really crucial to what I mean by patriotism.
Raven: Yeah, yeah, I totally feel that. What you're saying, Gregory, and it brings me to the question of nationalism. Nationalism, which I just found out because I didn't know, the definition is specifically about a group that shares a history, religion, culture and language and ethnicity, and we are not that. We are not a nation by that definition.
So patriotism and nationalism are completely different to me based on that definition. And I resonate with that definition, that's why I brought it up obviously. Because we are a pluralistic society, all “men” quote unquote, are created equal, to me says we're all created equal and they just weren't enlightened at the time to include everybody else besides white men at the time. But that is the ideal, and that's who we are.
Gregory: Yeah. Well, I want to say, I just want to respond to [saying] they weren't enlightened to shift that . . . it isn't that they became enlightened. It's that they were forced to include the people that they had excluded.
Raven: Oh, yes, right. The changes only happened through, yeah changes through force.
Gregory: So my take on nationalism is that it's like uncritical devotion to the country, based on like some mythology of greatness.
Raven: Right.
Gregory: Which is a lot of times rooted in ethnicity, or race, or something like that. But it doesn't have to be. You can define what the nation is in a lot of ways, but to be devoted to it in a way that's uncritical, that it can do no wrong, and that there's a there's an Us. Versus Them, like Americans are special, and somehow deserve to dominate other countries or the world, or . . .
Raven Odion: Right
Gregory: Or to say that certain people don't belong here. Right? We welcome immigration, but only from some countries or some kinds of people are welcome, which is a lot of the history of America that's been the case. But.
Raven Odion: That's right.
Gregory Mengel: I feel like it's not in our
Gregory Mengel: what's the word I'm looking for?
Gregory Mengel: But it isn't the vision. It isn't the vision.
Raven: Okay, thanks. I just want to make one more point about patriotism. Gregory is that the word can be used as a club, and it's been used against me that way. Where, if you happen to criticize anything about the government or the way things are done, somebody doesn't like it, and they just club you with. Well, you're not patriotic.
And to me that that's not patriotism. Patriotism is being able to criticize. Where you see there's a problem, which is why we have the Second Amendment in the first place, so.
Gregory: And the 1st Amendment.
Raven: And the 1st amendment, absolutely.
Gregory: I think you meant the 1st Amendment.
Raven: Yes, I did. Well, that's why we have the second Amendment, too, so that I can pull out my gun when I want to. You can cut that!
Gregory: Well, I agree, I agree a hundred percent with that. So good place to close.
Byron: So now we're going to reverse roles. Raven and Gregory are going to go off screen, and welcoming in Sue Lani and Kaeley to this fishbowl, have at it.
Sue Lani: It's really interesting to go second, because it's so tempting to respond to what I just heard. But I think we need to have our own conversation, and starting with that definition of what is patriotism and what has informed our individual experiences. Why don't you go first, Kaeley? You had a really interesting story the other day about how that felt doing the pledge of allegiance.
Kaeley: Yeah, sure. So, growing up, I mean, first of all, I'd like to say, I think I pretty much share the definitions of both patriotism and nationalism that I've already heard today. That's largely how I experience it and how I interpret things.
But even growing up, I think there was this sense of America is the greatest country on earth. I don't know where I heard that, but I did absorb that messaging and I didn't challenge it, and I didn't necessarily see a need to. Patriotism was being proud of your country and grateful for the sacrifices that were made to allow for other people's freedoms, and I still think that that is something worth celebrating.
I did remember growing up, though, feeling a little bit weird, [and] I think this is what you were talking about, when we would stand and cover our hearts and say a pledge of allegiance to a flag. And I have always been a little bit over analytical, but I remember even as a kid thinking, what am I saying? I pledge allegiance to a flag? A nation? You're 5, 6 years old, that's kind of a tall order. What am I agreeing to? What are the terms? What if my country does something bad, you know? Why are my loyalties here? And that still, if I'm honest, feels a bit cult like to me . . . and Conservatives are going to kill me for this. But it feels a little indoctrinating, like we're forcing kids to agree to some sort of loyalty code that maybe they need to work out when they're a little bit older. For me that was always a little bit weird, but I didn't hate it. It was just kind of like, huh! What's this?
But I remember, I can still recite all the words to songs like America the Beautiful, and my country tis of the sweet land of liberty, and you know some of the verses still make me cry, and I do. My heart wells up, and I feel pride and gratitude.
Even in my family, Alexander Hamilton's like my great, great, great, great grandpa. So that was some way I felt connected to this greatness and this amazing feat, and these people who are brave and strong, and they sacrificed a lot of things. Everybody wants to feel anchored to an identity of something that's worth aspiring to, that's greater than themselves. For me, that's patriotism.
And I think that patriotism has been a really great force for good in the world, and it saddens me . . . I'm happy to hear the guest today saying that they still think it's good. In recent history for me it has felt almost like I'm supposed to be ashamed that I'm not allowed to be patriotic. You know this kind of performative self flagellation. America's terrible, and we should all be embarrassed, and I don't necessarily feel that.
Sue Lani: I probably hadn't given it much thought at all, until high school. We grew up doing the pledge of allegiance, and we had Camp FIre meetings [where] we would say that, and I have always been rather fond of rituals, and so I had always experienced it, just this is like singing happy birthday before blowing out the birthday candles or singing the doxology after the offering. I mean, it was a piece of a shared statement that says we're all together, and we all are. We're all together as family. It does feel familial to me, and I have a very large and very functional extended family. So for me that's a very positive connotation
In that extended family there's a fair number of veterans, past, present, and current, who formed how I feel about patriotism. This flag represents what all of those in my family had sworn to protect and to actively participate in being part of shaping the country, that's patriotism, that active participation is a piece of it.
In high school, which is during the Vietnam War, I was the awkward, skinny kid that didn't talk to cool people. And so one of the cool people came up to me on a day when there was going to be a protest the next day. There were going to be two competing, protesting camps, and I took one of the armbands. Each side was picking up armbands to put on and he asked if I would join in. I said, yes, and I went home with this armband, and I'm sitting on the couch telling my little sister about this about this cool kid talked to me.
My father comes in. My father is a history teacher. He's a Coast Guard veteran, he just asked - and I don't know what my parents politics were and actually I still couldn't tell you exactly, because that's not something we talked about. Service was, but not politics.And he asked me why did you take that one?
Well, I knew absolutely the wrong answer was because this cool guy asked me he never talked to me. That was the wrong answer. I knew that. And so I came up with a defense. I thought through and realized I did have a reason, and what I told him was that I took the one with the flag on it, not the one that had the what was supposed to be like a splash of blood. I took the one with the flag on it, because it's my country, and I am part of it, and I have to be supportive, and if I think it's doing the wrong thing, I need to be active, and I need to help be part of making it better and keeping it on track, and I still feel that same way.
That's the feelings that come back to me in saying the pledge of allegiance and in seeing the flag. It's not being uncritical but it is about being loyal. And if I ever felt that I couldn't be loyal, just as if you were in a truly dysfunctional family you’d need to leave, but if I ever felt that it was that dysfunctional that would be what I'd have to do. I'd have to do like Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was patriotic until his country grew so totally dysfunctional that he had to resist.
We're not anywhere near that kind of point. There are some folks who seem to think that we are. But I just I really don't think we're anywhere near that kind of point. We still have the potential to be a functional family if we just do like the Braver Angels, marriage counseling, family counseling process, which is one of the reasons I like being involved with Braver Angels.
The nationalism part. You said that both of those definitions kind of resonated with you, and until this came up as a possible topic, I would have said they were the same thing. I wouldn't really see a distinction other than that. Patriotism seems a little bit more about emotions and connection and nationalism a little bit more about drawing boundaries.
Kaeley: Hmm, interesting.
Sue Lani: And what Raven was saying about nations, nations generally being defined by a shared, a shared language, a shared ethnicity. And we don't have that. Which is why it really hurts, which is why it really hurt me to see the battle start up over the Star Spangled Banner at a football game. It's just supposed to be a nice ritual. Everybody sings the song. You don't think all about the words a whole lot, and it's just like this, says, Yep, we're all here. We're all in the same place. We're on the same side, and then it had to get turned into a fight.
Kaeley Harms: I really struggled with that. And again, I feel like I'm supposed to be here representing Conservatives, and I am not toeing the line, so I apologize. But I really struggled with that. You know I'm raising a biracial son in North Idaho. So it's an interesting situation, you know he has been called the N-word, and when I watch what was happening, while I do not agree with BLM as a movement, I don't agree with their proposed solutions to the problems that they name. I think the problems that they name are very real. I feel like there are, you know, people who are alive today who heard the National Anthem from the colored section of the bleachers, and I have to imagine that that would make an impact on how that, you know, and so I don't think that we've resolved all racism, and I feel like my ancestors fought for the freedom for these people to protest too.
So well, you know I stand for the anthem because I want to honor the sacrifices that were made. I also understand that those sacrifices afford people the liberty to say, Wait, we still have problems. And so to me it wasn't the end of the world. I don't even know how many conservative friends I lost when I said, let them kneel like you know . . .
Sue Lani: No, it's, I was just gonna say it's not like it felt like at the end of the world. It felt like this is just bad strategy.
Kaeley: Right, yeah, yeah.
Sue Lani: It was just dumb. You are a well-paid entertainer at an entertainment function, and why are you picking this . . .? I guess, I saw it as a stupid strategy, and it did not lead to anybody paying attention to the problems. All it did was start a fight. And that I don't find terribly useful. I'm a pragmatic libertarian and I like to do things that work, and doing things that don't work that aren't useful I find I struggle with greatly.
Kaeley Harms: I mean, I guess so. It depends on what your metric is because I would say it did start conversations. I don't know that it's all a loss. But yeah, and I do think from where I sit to nationalism, I think it's so closely linked to my absolute disdain for Christian nationalism, which is kinism and racist and sexist, and all those things. To me nationalism bears a connotation of excess. It's excess loyalty. It's arrogance. It's enforcement of your identity on other people who don't share it to me. That's what it means. But I understand that you're operating with a different . . .
Sue Lani: Right, and I understand where you're coming from with that, too. Cause that's . . .
Kaeley: Yeah.
Sue Lani: That's something that that I'm learning about. It's not something that I've run into, that's not the church tradition that I come out of. And so it hasn't been part of my world. That's that just means I have to push myself to learn more about that piece. One of the other questions here was, Are they different and in what way? I can understand what you're saying about excess.
I had an interesting experience in the Baltic countries. One of the things that kept Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia intact as countries was a nationalism based on ethnicity and language, but mostly language. All three of those countries kept their languages, kept them alive whether they were under the Swedish crown, whether they were under the Russian crown, and they've only had very brief periods of independence. I was able to visit with Ag Forestry Leadership program, Latvia and Lithuania in 2008.
It was really interesting to listen to folks from another country explaining where their patriotism and where their nationalism came from, and how language was such a glue holding them together. It gives me a better appreciation, for instance, for the executive order about declaring a national language. I've always wondered. Why didn't we just say we have one language. We can use a whole bunch of them. There's no reason we can't use a whole bunch of them. But couldn't we say that we have one? Somehow it feels like for patriotism, for healthy nationalism, we need to go back to finding what we have in common and respecting that, as “these are things that we're going to hold together,” we can argue about everything else, but we're always . . . there's always going to be turkey on Thanksgiving dinner, whatever it is, just those few things.
I'm looking forward to the next step of this fishbowl where we get to interact and say what we learned, what surprised us and what we learned about each other's points of view.
Byron: So let's open it up. Raven and Gregory are back. And we're all present here again. And yeah, let's open this up. Anybody want to start?
Sue Lani: What's something we each were maybe surprised by or learned. And what did we each hear that was common ground. And just very briefly, I think I heard all of us seeing patriotism as a healthy family.
Raven: This is outside of what you just gave us the parameters for, Sue Lani, but I just want to respond to the language piece, if I may. I have a different perspective about declaring English our language. I think it's unnecessary. There is no language that is going to replace English in the United States. I'm studying Spanish because I think it's really important to
have that ability. We are one of the nations that does not speak multiple languages in the same way other citizens of the world do. Most other citizens of the world are at least bilingual, at least because they learn English and I just I feel a little touchy about it, because I feel like it's heading in that exceptionalism lane, you know, like English is superior, and I know that's not what you mean by it, Sue Lani. I get that, you [are] thinking more of our national identity.
Sue Lani: I'm looking at it as a symbolic statement, and I'm studying German. But my rationale is that I want to be able to read some grandparents letters because half of my family is very recent immigrants, and the other reason is because I enjoy travel, and I would like to have a second language on hand for when we are traveling, and you find German tourists all over the world, although most of them speak English.
Raven: The other piece about the reason I chose to study Spanish in the first place was because my mother watches Fox News and I don't know how many times I walked in and it was on and somebody on the television was saying, everybody should speak English, slamming Spanish speakers, and I just got tired of hearing that. And so I decided as my political act. I was going to learn Spanish and the upside is that there are people that I can. . . I just was able to speak it today when I went to a Mexican restaurant. So it's useful as well!
[insert shared laughter here!]
Sue Lani: I think that's fun! That's a great kind of political resistance that you've chosen. It's very practical!
Raven: Exactly! And I was all for Colin [Kaepernick] kneeling. Actually, it's his right to protest. And then I watched Fox News blow it up. So you know? I, yeah, yeah, so.
Sue Lani: I, yeah . . .
Raven: I hear what you're saying about it was not a good strategy. And, okay, back to the topic. Sorry folks. Gregory?
Gregory: Just one quick thing about the English thing. I think there's been a lot written about historically why that decision was made not to do that in the past. And so I would just invite people, because I haven't read anything about that recently. I would just invite people to Google that because I think there was some deep thinking about it.
Sue Lani: Could be a whole other conversation we could have!
Gregory: Yeah, we could just make a whole episode on this topic. But moving back to the original topic, I just want to say, I was surprised, Kaeley, by your frankly [being] critical of conservatism? Perspectives, like that's not exactly the language I'm groping for. But to hear you articulate positions that were outside the mainstream of conservatism was surprising and refreshing, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness about that especially about Colin, because I know the kneeling thing was a very controversial and inflammatory for a lot of Conservatives.
And then the pledge of allegiance. It's surprising because, you know, I never thought of it as a kid at all, or until people started suing about it in the late eighties or something, and I was like, Oh, huh!? I wonder about that! But I never really felt strongly about it, to really put a lot of energy into, like having an opinion one way or the other. But I appreciated that you had that critical perspective as a grade school kid and was surprised to hear that, given your general conservative leanings.
Kaeley: Well, thank you for that. I also have to say I was grateful. I think I had entered this conversation expecting to have to defend patriotism. I wasn't going to defend nationalism because I won't. But I thought, my husband and I had a conversation not too long ago we were driving around North Idaho, and this is Trump territory, and I did not vote for him. But this is where we live. I'm in the thick of it.
And I came from Western Washington, which is very, very blue. And so it's kind of a culture shock for me. I've only been here for about 6 years. We were talking about what percentage of homes in America fly an American flag do you suspect are probably Conservatives, and my guess is probably upwards of 90%, you know, because I do feel like there has been - I don't know if it's a subtle or unspoken, or if it is spoken - but like a sense that we're supposed to be embarrassed to be patriotic at all.
And my husband looks the part. He's this big, bald white guy, and he carries guns. And I think we went to an event in Seattle, and somebody took a picture of my husband and posted it on Facebook and said that he was one of the Proud Boys, which I can't stand the Proud Boys, nothing in common with the Proud Boys. I think they're terrible, but just because of the way he looks, and so there is a sense that we've kind of had to hide any sense of gratitude or pride, or anything about America with much of the left, and so to zoom in and hear, oh, no! Patriotism is good that was refreshing for me, so thank you.
Sue Lani: I like the way the conversation is going, because we did pick a topic. We picked a topic that could potentially be divisive and we've had good conversations that we've occasionally gotten off track because of something [said]. And that's how a good conversation goes. You sit down with friends and all of a sudden you're just talking about something you didn't start out with, and we had a little side trail to language, but we found a lot of common ground, I think, and I feel really good that I'm hearing from four people here who really want things to be better, who want the country to succeed. We may have some different ways of getting there, and that really is the whole point of having conversations like this is, if you can get past the talking points and the things that are said to be inflammatory, we can find those common grounds.
One of the interesting things is shutting up and long enough to listen. I mean, how often do any of us just sit and listen for 5 or 10 min, to pick up on what people are saying. Boy, this is really good training for that. How did you experience the listening side? Was that hard? Was it easy.
Gregory: I found it surprisingly easy. I think there's like a bias built in to the public discourse, where the people who are the loudest are also the most extreme. And so when we listen to public people talking about these issues, they usually stake out the most extreme position, and they demonize the other side.
One of the things I heard that didn't surprise me, but actually sounded very familiar, was feeling shamed for being conservative or feeling like - Oh, no, no! What you said, Kaeley, was feeling like as an American you're supposed to feel ashamed or participate in some kind of self-flagellation and I feel like that's a vibe, for lack of a better word, that is extrapolated from the amount of time people on the left spend in critical mode. Right? We, we focus a lot on the problems, completely admit that, own that. [I] feel that's important because we're idealists. And we're noticing the difference between our ideals and where we are and so we focus on how we're missing that mark.
And then people who maybe just aren't in that vibe, they just hear, complain, complain, complain, and America's bad, and then those public figures again, who are taking staking out the most extreme position. They're [saying] the Left wants you to feel ashamed. They don't want you to fly, fly the flag or whatever it is, and then . . .
Sue Lani: That's a great insight all the way around.
Gregory: . . . and people on the left are afraid to fly the flag because somebody will think they're conservative.
Raven: Hmm, hmm. [a verbal head nodding in agreement]
Sue Lani: That's a really great insight, Gregory. I appreciate that. That's probably part of the Braver Angel’s thing [where] each tribe, Red and Blue, has got to reel in the extreme, so we can have better conversations in the middle, and as long as those loud, loud extremes are dominating the conversation we're not going to make much progress.
Raven: Yeah, I found the listening to be easy, Sue Lani. It wasn't difficult. There was no point at which I felt like I had to bust in and say, No! So yeah, it was great to listen.
Sue Lani: Okay. So now we've concluded that listening is hard for me.
[more shared laughter, indispensable for courageous conversations]
Raven: Okay, okay. So the listening part was hard for you! That was my next question. How is it for you, Sue Lani?
Sue Lani: I was extremely shy until sometime in my sometime in my mid thirties, I found my voice, and I haven't stopped. I'm making up for lost time. So now I always want to say something.
Byron: Well, you know, I'd like to share just a little bit. And that's my own perspective, which I'm feeling kind of schizophrenic. One is that I'm with Kaeley, and my hand on my heart just wasn't cutting it in any time, you know. Still, today, the flag for me is like a piece of cloth and I don't resonate with it. I don't identify with it. That's one side. The other side is that I intentionally wasn't in the Armed Services.
And I'll say that there's a part of me that I hold very dear, and I knew if I went to boot camp or something that would be taken away and so I knew intuitively that's not someplace I want to go, but at the same time people have died. Many, many people have died for the ideals that the flag represents, and so I'm not sure . . . honestly, I'm feeling a little something in my chest that I resonate with as sadness that I'm not more in connection with the price that people have paid, so that I can be here and have the privilege to either wave the flag with pride, or burn it. My own flag, not somebody else's, but my own, you know. That's a right that I have that's been hard fought for.
So wrapping up. That's kind of where I'm at.
Sue Lani: Along with language. Another interesting conversation would be attitudes towards the military and our understanding of what it means to be in military service. I'm not going to start that rabbit trail right now, but . . .
Byron: Writing it down. I'm writing it down for a topic. Yeah. That was a good one.
Sue Lani: It, it would be, what does it mean? And what does it mean to be in service? And I'm hoping that as part of this podcast we are being in service to the country in a way, we have to get dialogue going again.
One of the things I was reading this last week talked about how Tocqueville found such value in how Americans would always form associations to solve problems and gather together. And we used to do that physically. There were Elks, Moose, Lions, Rotarians, Kiwanis, all those service clubs, everywhere that was where people got together and worked on stuff. And when people are mission focused, we are less likely to be torn apart by pieces of cloth or flags or pledges. We're focused on the mission. Patriotism to me is really about focusing on the mission. And that's the mission for this podcast, to make it possible for people to start using social media as well as their own circles of friends, to reconnect, to stay in association, to remember that we are mission focused for healthy communities, healthy families. There's no nobody's pushing against that. And it's just we have to figure out how to get there and get there together.
Byron: Well, you know, that's a really good point, Sue Lani. And I think what we're doing, what we're role modeling here, what we're doing is we're having a dialogue. And I believe on social media there's a tendency to think monologue is posing as dialogue. But it's actually two monologues, or multiple monologues going along. And yeah, I just wanted to say that.
Sue Lani: I've enjoyed this dialogue. I want to thank everybody for coming online. We'll keep doing these again, or maybe every other week or so, and hope that we're sharing something useful to our fellow citizens, our fellow Americans.
[thanks and good byes all around]
Byron Odion: Alrighty until next time.
If there’s a hot topic you’d like to challenge us with, please feel free to drop it in the comments!
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